Hernandez and Zimmerman

[tantalyr]

Now that the jury has acquitted Zimmerman, I am deeply disappointed by some in the mass media, not to mention the community at large. I have always been convinced that you cannot truly understand a trial--or the jury's verdict--unless you actually watch or hear all (or at least most) of the trial. And having heard probably 90% of the trial (and actually watching about half of it), I am absolutely convinced that the jury in the Zimmerman case had no choice but to acquit him.

The short and simple version is that the trial all came down to who was on top of whom that night, and who was yelling for help. And most importantly, keep in mind that under the law it was NOT Zimmerman's burden to prove that he acted in self-defense when he shot Martin. To the contrary, it was the State's job to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was NOT in reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death when he pulled the trigger.

So back to who was wailing on whom, and who was shouting for help. For me, it came down to one witness. Ignore the testimony of Martin's family and friends who all said that it was Martin's voice. Equally, ignore the testimony of all of Zimmerman's family and friends who all testified that it was Zimmerman's voice screaming for help. They all have so-called "listener bias." That is, they WANT to believe it was their loved one's voice crying for help.

One witness--Jonathan Goode--testified that he saw 8 to 10 seconds of the struggle between the two as both were on the ground. He was a resident of the neighborhood who went outside when he heard shouts and witnessed two people on the ground, one on top of the other throwing punches in "ground and pound" style and the one on the bottom yelling for help. Goode went back inside to call 911 before the shot was fired.

Goode testified unequivocally that Martin was on top throwing punches at Zimmerman on the bottom, and that Zimmerman was screaming for help. Before that night, Goode had never met either Zimmerman or Martin. As we say in my neck of the woods, Goode "didn't have a dog in this fight." He had nothing to gain or lose by testifying as he did and, thus, did not have any bias toward one or the other. To me, then, Goode's testimony alone created reasonable doubt whether Zimmerman was actually in fear of great bodily harm when he fired his pistol.

Consider this, too. If you were straddling someone raining down punches on him, how likely is it that YOU would be the one screaming for help?

And, as well, if Zimmerman was on top of Martin pounding him, why weren't there any bruises, abrasions or other marks on Martin's face or head? There were plenty on Zimmerman (including a fractured nose), but not on Martin's.

Bottom line: Given all the evidence in this terribly tragic case, the prosecution basically had an impossible job to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not acting in self-defense. All they could prove--and did prove--was that Zimmerman was a dumbass for trailing Martin that night and not letting the cops handle it. But the State didn't--and couldn't--charge Zimmerman with criminal stupidity.

Folks may not like the verdict. But the jury did the right thing under our laws in acquitting him.

[xaeris]

The way I see it, is yes by the law Zimmerman should have been acquitted.

Yes, he did act in Self Defense.

And you can't crucify someone over laws that have not yet been written for things they've done in the past.

BUT.

I think we need to take a look at these..... "Neighborhood Watch" thing, seriously.

We can't have normal citizens walking around on the street pretending to be cops, without the actual training or authority that cops actually have.

There needs to be some sort of bare-bones training classes at the very least, registration, and some sort of recognizable uniform (but don't make it look too close to a police officer's uniform so they aren't mistaken for a cop) or something for those wishing to volunteer for a Neighborhood Watch position.

I still think that if Martin had known this guy was a Neighborhood Watch, he would have known the guy had a gun, he would have known the guy did not have malicious intent.

Also, if Zimmerman would have had some sort of formal police training, he would have known to stay in his vehicle when there's a suspicious person walking around between properties and such that could easily ambush him and he wouldn't have been on the ground getting beat up in the first place.

Either of the above would have prevented this whole mess.

EDIT: Also, some Unarmed Self-Defense training might have helped the situation too. How does a 185lb 29 year old man get pinned down by a 150-158lb 17 year old? Some basic Self-Defense training could have easily turned that whole thing around.

[woooooooo]

How come were not seeing all the arrest/trial coveragel on the two thugs that shot the baby in the face?

[FrithRae]

Neighborhood Watches - are just volunteer groups of concerned people in the neighborhood (If that much).

Plenty of ""signs" up in neighborhoods where the only thing it means is that "maybe our neighbors are looking out a window when something happens..."

Even if Martin had known this guy was in the Neighborhood Watch, he would NOT have known he carried a gun.

You are right, there are no rules or regulations for these "groups." Nothing at all but people volunteering to be good neighbors...if that.

It really just depends on the neighborhood. But no, nothing about it indicates or even implies the person watching is carrying a gun..or any other weapon.

[Pharcellus]

Let's be real here.

A 17-year-old UNARMED MINOR went to the store for a snack. He was on his way back, walking HOME through his FATHER'S NEIGHBORHOOD, when he noticed someone he did not recognize tailing him, first, in his car, then on foot. The stranger was acting suspicious and, to an UNARMED KID, was a threat. At some point, the stranger caught up with him and they confronted one another.

So the question now becomes, who attacked whom and why? If Martin attacked Zimmerman, it could have been out of fear for his own life, or provoked by something Zimmerman did or said, potentially leading off with some kind of offensive verbiage. If Zimmerman attacked Martin, it could have been provoked by something Martin said, or because Zimmerman was attempting to subdue/detain Martin illegally via some kind of "Citizens Arrest". That part we will never know, but here's the point -- it doesn't matter. Zimmerman harassed an UNARMED KID when he was TOLD not to by 911 dispatch, instigating an unnecessary altercation, getting his ass beat for his trouble, and then went WAY over the top by escalating to pulling his concealed weapon and killing the person he was harassing, probably because he was shocked and embarrassed by how poorly his so-called "training" served him in a real situation.

It has been pointed out that Zimmerman had MMA training, amongst other law enforcement-style training, including weapons training. Beyond the fact that Zimmerman was described as being "one of the softest people" his MMA trainer had ever trained, I have no doubt that Zimmerman felt overconfident in his abilities, and this was borne out by his altercation with Martin. Zimmerman started a fight, maybe not overtly (but probably). However, his actions (resulting from his unnecessary harassment of Martin) resulted in a fist fight where Martin was likely beating the crap out of him. I can't see how anyone could say with any justification that Zimmerman feared for his life enough to justify escalating to using a gun. Yeah, he was getting his ass beat, but he had NO indication that Martin was going to kill him.. no weapon, nothing. You can't use verbiage said during a fight as evidence of intent. If you've ever been in a fight, shit-talk ("Imma gonna KILL YOU, MUTHAFUCKAH!!") is part of the psychological component from the state of aggression.

More than likely, Zimmerman's overconfidence (which was displayed throughout the incident, and not seriously contested in court) caused him to either attack or incite Martin to attack, whereupon Martin did what any UNEXPERIENCED KID would do in that situation -- fight back against some creepy stranger following him around and then harassing him when all he wanted to do was to be left in peace to go home.

The question this all boils down to is: In this country, who is at fault for instigating a confrontation leading to a fist fight, whereupon the instigator pulls a weapon and kills the other person? There have been plenty of "bar brawls gone wrong" with the same basic formula where the instigator/shooter goes to prison; WHY is this case any different? If anything, it is even MORE striking, because it was between an ADULT and a MINOR. As the ONLY ADULT PRESENT, Zimmerman was the MOST RESPONSIBLE PARTY PRESENT.

If you START a fight, when you had no reason to start it, were advised against it by law enforcement officials, and you can't otherwise finish it without having to pull a gun and shoot the other person dead, you're a fucking coward, and YOU SHOULD GO TO PRISON. PERIOD.

The fact that the case went the way it did is yet another sad testament to the abysmal and deteriorating state of race relations in this country, as well as the gross level of stupidity of the average member of the public. For proof of this, just listen to the moronic juror B37 interview. This idiot was too busy planning and writing her goddamned book about the trial DURING the fucking trial to pay attention to the case itself. In fact, I daresay she had motive to make the outcome as controversial as possible to increase her potential future book sales.

If anything, I think the trial should have resulted in a mistrial over stupid shit like this.

[FrithRae]

and writing her goddamned book about the trial DURING the fucking trial to pay attention to the case itself. In fact, I daresay she had motive to make the outcome as controversial as possible to increase her potential future book sales.

You know, this is what is interesting to me...because I just watched a documentary on the "first US female serial killer" (she wasn't...), "Aileen: Life and Death of a Serial Killer" (on Netflix..REALLY GOOD..very interesting..), the one they did the Monster's Ball movie about.

And something the documentarian (who I will state, possibly is as Narcissistic as the people he interviews..) points out in this documentary (apparently he did an earlier one that really focues on this point) is that at all steps of Aileen's arrest and trial - people were constantly making book and movie deals.

Like..even the prison guards guarding her before her trial, were making book/movie/interview deals. All the way there to Florida Gov. Jeb Bush who appears to put off her execution until he can time it just right to help with his reelection (she had been begging to just be put to death already but he hung onto her death order for like 6 months...)

And he points out, to me rightly so, how any of these people would be seen as fair and balanced and qualified to give testimony in ANY direction...when they're all signing interview/book/movie deals.

I mean, she was guilty as sin - though one could definitely make the argument that she was literally created from birth to be what she was (I mean hotdamn she had it ...really really horrible..); and at the end she was certainly paranoid delusional/psychotic as fuck - making her incompetent but not legally insane..as those are two very differen things.. (because the documentarian clearly didn't believe she should be put to death due to her mental state..)

But still, it was just horrible how she was treated by pretty much almost everyone around her - o n both sides - worried more about making money off her story than anything else.

I wonder at what point, the justice dept. will actually step-in and start throwing out all sorts of violations and/or mistrials due to how many deals are being made under the table during the trial...

Course I'm sure it will take some huge gross miscarriage of justice that has to be proven before they'll do anything at all..


On the side note - really interesting documentary, and the interviews with Aileen are.. just fascinating. Just have to ignore the documentarian's ego... *lol* and realize that he too is taken in by Aileen's manipulations, though he doesn't realize it.

[xaeris]

RE@Pharcellus:

Thank you for saying what I was trying to get at in my previous post.

We might have had disagreements over time, but I'm 100% behind that post.

Yes, "Technically", Zimmerman acted in "Self Defense".

But yet, it is fairly clear that he contributed to the whole mess in the first place. In fact, I'd go almost as far as to say he fucking started it in the first damn place. He saw someone who he THOUGHT was suspicious, and started stalking him. Was it because he was black and was wearing a hood? *rolls eyes*

We REALLY need more laws, rules, training and regulations concerning Neighborhood Watch to prevent this bullshit from happening in the future. Last thing we need are more people out there pretending to be cops who don't have the authority or the training to actually handle that sort of responsibility. Slapping a "Neighborhood Watch" title on someone and leaving it at that isn't good enough.

Maybe if there were an actual Police Officer there instead of Zimmerman, that would have gone in a completely different direction.

Maybe if the Neighborhood Watchperson there had better training, a uniform, and actually followed some common sense (like staying in his vehicle), that would have gone in a completely different direction.

[Deleted]

www.cnn.com/2013/09/09/us/george-zimmerman-detained/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

huh... no, he's not prone to violent outbursts.

[FrithRae]

yea I'd been reading his wife is divorcing him ... and now this.. heh.

Yea I never believed he wasn't a douchebag... just that reasonable doubt was certainly a "given" in the trial...

[tantalyr]

Such is the practical sentence imposed upon Zimmerman--he will be haunted by the media for the rest of his life. Every aspect of his life will be blown up into a "huge" news story.

Do we honestly care when he gets stopped for speeding? Or if he's going through a messy divorce? I certainly don't.

[FrithRae]

Nope not me!

Course "haunted" by media is misleading only because...some people would consider it the best "plus"...just..depends on your personality.. (disorder...)

This may be exactly what he wants.... maybe he has dreams to be like the Kardashians.

[Deleted]

I think its karma coming back at him. he took a life, lied about it, got away with murder, and now its all coming back at him.

[woooooooo]

Sept 11, 2013 10:13:55 GMT tantalyr said:

Such is the practical sentence imposed upon Zimmerman--he will be haunted by the media for the rest of his life. Every aspect of his life will be blown up into a "huge" news story.

Do we honestly care when he gets stopped for speeding? Or if he's going through a messy divorce? I certainly don't.

Exactly. Having been through a messy divorce myself, I really dont want to hear the details of his (or anyone elses for that matter).

There may be a bit of attention junkie milking going on here too. Much like that crazy witch in FL whose name now escapes me.

On a positive note, the kid that killed the baby was sentenced to life in prison. I had to get that news from the BBC website.