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Post by tantalyr on Jul 4, 2013 0:53:22 GMT
What?? No comments yet about the Zimmerman/Travon Martin trial?? And none about now-former New England Patriot star tight end Aaron Hernandez?
Okies then, I'll lead off with Hernandez first . . . .
Hernandez
My bet is that he won't plead out. Why? Because like most professional athletes--NFL, NBA, MLB--in his universe the RULES don't apply to him like they do to the rest of us. Since junior high every mess he has created was cleaned up for him, all the way through college (and sometimes their professional career depending upon how important they are to their teams).
So he's expecting to be let off, just like OJ. He won't plead out, even if and when the Boston police definitively link him to the 2012 drive-by double shooting. Because in his universe he's a star--and that makes up for everything.
George Zimmerman (Trayvon Martin) Trial
I've been trying cases for over 30 years now (admittedly only in the civil trial arena, not criminal) and I don't get the prosecution's case. Their lawyers almost seem bent on proving that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. Almost every witness they've put on has supported Zimmerman's defense.
The lone exception thus far has been Rachel Jentael who--in my professional judgment--has got to be the absolute worst witness I've ever seen.
I would not be surprised at all if the judge directs a verdict of acquittal as soon as the prosecution rests (likely this Friday). Or the judge may just bail herself out by letting it got to the jury which, however unlikely, finds him guilty on any charge, she (the Judge) can then order a directed verdict of acquittal.
If this ain't self-defense, I don't know what is.
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xaeris
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Post by xaeris on Jul 4, 2013 3:59:10 GMT
I don't normally keep track of trials other than glancing at the local paper now and then, but....
Isn't Zimmerman that guy who took it upon himself to stalk a black guy because he was a black guy, accosted him despite the 911 operator telling him not to, and wound up having to shoot Martin in "Self Defense" (in a situation he directly started, himself?)
I mean, seriously now.
If I walk into a dark alleyway with a gun in known gang territory, and then shoot someone who pulls a knife on me, I sure as hell don't deserve to be let off the hook.
You just don't put yourself in direct danger when it isn't any of your business to do so, when you have no authority to do so, when you are told NOT to do so, and then expect to be let off the hook when you have to kill in so-called "Self Defense".
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Kulamata
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Post by Kulamata on Jul 4, 2013 7:41:52 GMT
If this is accurate, the prosecution did better late today. This blog may have a pro-prosecutor bias, so it's worth keeping an eye out for confirmation. www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/03/1220983/-Prosecution-likely-to-rest-its-case-in-Zimmerman-trial-todayI believe there was medical testimony yesterday that Z's injuries were less serious than he'd said, and probably self-inflicted. We'll see, and perhaps there will be a good in-depth article; New Yorker perhaps. I tend to agree somewhat about the athletic star's isolation. Also, some criminal pathologies are marked by delusions of being owed and deserving, and by a sense of power. (Now that I'm in over my head, I'll say HELP FRITH!) Mix that with what Tant was talking about, and it's quite a combination. OJ's an excellent example, maybe shown even better in the robbery caper. Edit: And then I found this. Not the whole story, as it was written mid-trial, but plenty of facts. Tends to agree with Tant's take on the prosecution's tactics. www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/03/1220813/-Will-the-Prosecution-Tear-Open-the-Mack-Truck-Sized-Holes-in-Zimmerman-s-Story
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Post by tantalyr on Jul 4, 2013 14:03:14 GMT
Ah Xaeris, you really haven't been following the trial or any of its day-to-day analysis.
Most of what you wrote about your understanding of the case stems from media hype that has been blown apart by the actual evidence at trial.
Zimmerman did not "stalk" Martin into some dangerous territory. To the contrary, as part of his voluntary neighborhood watch (something many communities have and which the Sanford police encouraged and promoted), Zimmerman saw Martin as someone suspicious in his neighborhood (for a variety of reasons), followed him for a few minutes as Martin ducked between darkened houses until he lost him, and then was jumped by Martin as Zimmerman was returning to his truck.
Zimmerman suffered a broken nose from being punched to the ground by Martin (as well as cuts and abrasions to his head from Martin allegedly pounding his head into the sidewalk). The only eyewitness testified that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, straddling him and throwing punches in what is described in MMA terms as a "ground and pound." And he heard Zimmerman yelling for help.
Under the law, a person is entitled to use whatever force he reasonably believes under the circumstances to be necessary to prevent death or grievous bodily injury. As for me, if I just had a six-foot-tall guy punch me, break my nose, then sit on top of me raining blows down on me (and, as Zimmerman told the cops in three different interviews, saying "You're going to die tonight"), I'm going to do whatever it takes to get the guy off me--and if that means pulling a gun, then so be it. Throw in that Zimmerman also told the cops he felt Martin reaching for his (Zimmerman's) gun and in my view you've got at least reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was indeed acting in self-defense when he shot Martin. And that means acquittal.
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xaeris
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Post by xaeris on Jul 4, 2013 17:19:21 GMT
RE:Tant:
I read the Wiki synopsis briefly before posting what I did.
Still sounds like he directly endangered himself needlessly because he *thought* he saw someone suspicious.
I'm not sure I like the idea of people taking it upon themselves to follow people because they "look" suspicious.
And even then, Martin lived in the area, didn't he? He was shot to death, according to Wiki synopsis, 70 feet away from the apartment in which he lived.
If he was really a part of the neighborhood watch, isn't it kinda Z's responsibility to... you know... know/recognize the people that live in the place? He had a hoodie on, sure, but then it was raining, right? You'd obviously have the hood up if it was raining.
Now, obviously, Martin had no right to attack Z, but then again, Z did kind of invite that onto himself when he started following Martin around. I wouldn't be surprised if Martin felt threatened by this guy with a gun following him around, and watching his every move. And then, again, he died 70 feet away from his apartment.
Picture this.
You're walking around outside at night, and there's this guy following you at a distance and watching you, and he ends up 70 feet away from the door to your apartment. Is he going to rob your house? What's he doing? Why is he following you? Why does he have a gun? What does he intend on doing with the gun?
Unlike Z, Martin isn't a neighborhood watch guy, and Martin might not have known who Z was or what his purpose was for being there that night, again, with a gun.
Attacking him was a stupid move, yeah, but then again. This took place 70 feet away from his apartment. Maybe he was concerned for his home and/or family.
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Post by tantalyr on Jul 4, 2013 18:36:18 GMT
The Wiki you read is false, Xaeris. Martin actually lived in Miami (I believe Miami, but it was in a completely different city in any event). He was staying with his stepfather in Sanford after being suspended from school for bringing marijuana on campus.
And the incident occurred much, much farther away than 70 feet from his stepfather's apartment. I haven't heard exactly how far away, but the apartment was outside the subdivision in which the shooting occurred.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 19:06:38 GMT
Some interesting analysis there, Kula.
Even if zimmerman is acquitted on this, I hope he at least feels some remorse for what he's done. Bottom line, he killed another human being. I can't imagine doing that up close and not feeling something. the other thing that always gets me is that a beating is often not permanent, but death is. He killed someone, that is permanent.
Finally, I could have sworn the 911 dispatcher told him to stay put and not pursue. So, why would he do that? And how can it be self-defense of castle whatever if he disregarded the 911 dispatchers orders?
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Post by tantalyr on Jul 4, 2013 20:17:38 GMT
Amon, the 911 dispatcher testified that he did NOT "order" Zimmerman to stay in his truck. Rather, after asking Zimmerman if he was in fact following Martin and being told yes, he responded "Sir, we don't need you to do that." The dispatcher further testifies that he never orders any caller to do anything per department policy.
Was Zimmerman stupid for getting out of his truck and following Martin? Absolutely! But does that vitiate self-defense? Not in the least.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2013 12:09:37 GMT
I simply don't buy self-defense. Putting oneself into a situation where you are provoking confrontation and then claiming that because the other party attacked you you are entitled to self-defense doesn't equate in my mind.
If someone enters my house, attacks me and I fight back, then its self defense. If I enter someone else's house, they attack me, and I fight back, that isn't self defense in my mind.
Similarly, if I am a neighborhood watch and I see a suspicious figure, call it in, and the 911 dispatcher says police are on the way, then following that person seems to me to be inviting confrontation. So I fail to see how being attacked in that instance equates to self defense.
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Post by D0Zer on Jul 5, 2013 17:03:13 GMT
If am not mistaken GZ was told to get address where he was at. He was walking back to car when TM confronted him and then hit him. He also said he was going to kill GZ. To me that is self-defense.
Either way two life's have been ruined. One gone one could be gone if convicted. I do wonder if he is acquitted if it will bother him till the day he dies?
Also what do you think about the New Black Panthers having a 10k bounty on GZ?
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Post by FrithRae on Jul 5, 2013 19:05:48 GMT
Keeping in mind I don't ever follow any of this crap on the news; I hate trial-news coverage... but as a result I know very little about any of this (more so on Zimmerman just cuz of the big media stink when he was arrested..) They aren't really considered "delusions" (as that would imply a level of, for lack of a better word, insanity - that these people do not possess, they are far more sane than that..). But yes, there are a couple of personality disorders that include that sense of entitlement, superiority, justified in all things, etc. The one of course that comes first to mind, that is a standard for any sociopathic individual (and from what little I've read Hernandez could fit that..) is Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Though certainly just by the sheer act of committing crimes (and yea I don't know to me this seems pretty open and shut that this guy is guilty..but again I'm not really following this closely lol) - you also fall into Antisocial Personality Disorder as well. If he's actually either of these disorders, then he's not someone you want going free. He WILL do something illegal, and probably murder, again; most especially if he's "justified in his superiority" by getting off from charges. But it is no excuse for what he did. Just explanations .
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Kulamata
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Post by Kulamata on Jul 6, 2013 0:30:52 GMT
Zimmerman is considerably the larger of the two. Zimmerman had a gun. It really seems unlikely that Martin would attack Z, let alone be able to mercilessly slam Z's head into the sidewalk.
If, under such unfavorable circumstances, Martin did attack Zimmerman, what did Z do to cause such an attack? We're supposed to believe that Martin, just as a whim, suddenly attacked a larger man for no reason at all? Rreeeaalllyyyyy???
Or was it a desperate, last ditch response to a perceived mortal threat?
If Martin grabbed the gun, (which the forensic evidence does not support) why was there a gun to be grabbed? Why had it been drawn? Because this smaller, unarmed man, (but a known Skittle eater!) constituted a mortal threat? Somehow the defense seems flimsier as I think about it more.
Added: Something that's been lurking in the back of my mind finally came forward; why would Zimmerman's gun have ever been within reach of Martin?
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Post by tantalyr on Jul 6, 2013 1:26:56 GMT
@frith:
I'm thinking (from what little I've read) that Hernandez might be suffering from a Narcissistic Disorder. Could you explain that further?
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Post by tantalyr on Jul 6, 2013 9:58:37 GMT
@kula:
Zimmerman's pistol was in a holster strapped to his waste. According to Zimmerman's statements to the police, Martin grabbed for the gun while straddling Zimmerman after knocking him down with a punch to the nose.
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Post by FrithRae on Jul 6, 2013 17:56:41 GMT
@frith: I'm thinking (from what little I've read) that Hernandez might be suffering from a Narcissistic Disorder. Could you explain that further? Well there's just the one. =D The Personality Disorder. Personality Disorders are the "extreme" ends of diagnosis, where you're talking about someone who doesn't "just" have something like Schizophrenia, or Major Depression - but their entire working of their personality is diagnosably dysfunctional. There are only 10 Personality Disorders (whereas there are hundreds of standard diagnoses), divided into 3 "clusters" (that just groups each set around some given common factors). Narcissistic PD is in the same category as Antisocial PD (your lifelong criminal), Histrionic PD (attention whores), and Borderline PD (love you/hate you split..). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorderThat really explains it pretty well (I read through it all first)- and keeps me from writing a novel. If you scroll down to Theories, you get into the information that has to do with "Pathological Narcissism" which would be where someone like this would fall. Or your general sociopath, etc. Those few pargraphs are really good. The wikki entry does a good job of at least attempting to differentiate between a "confident, high self-esteem, highly driven" person and someone diagnosed with this personality disorder. At least referring to the fact that, "Hey there's confident people and then there's pathologically confident people -who do so at the expense of others, and in denial of any evidence to the contrary"... For tv references - you look at your popular sociopath characters (of late, they are becoming more and more popular..the sociopath...but that's another thread..) - Holmes, House, and the best example I've seen of this on tv (I.e. more true to the pure idea) - Dexter. The last show doing the best job of really interweaving NPD in someone's essence, showing how someone operates - how they think about things - and constantly manage to justify/view their own actions and thinking as "superior." Thankfully, Hernandez isn't too bright (clearly). So we don't have a "Dexter" problem. Unlike the way TV likes to portray the average sociopath, most of them are as stupid as everyone else. Stupid people have personality disorders too, and they can try to pull it off and think they "fool everyone" when really they fool no one at all. As I've told many of my clients who have people in their life attempting to manipulate them in sociopathic LIKE ways - "Yes, they're trying to manipulate you, they're just bad at it - so we can tell. " Not that I mean to use the term interchangeably (as its not), but all sociopaths ARE Narcissists (among other things). Not all Narcissists are sociopaths. However, since Hernandez has murdered someone, even if he's a stupid one - he probably now falls under that category (of sociopath, but its less my area of expertise so that's just how I view it.)
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