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Post by jingles on Jan 15, 2013 0:00:23 GMT
something interesting I discovered that illustrates what the atrocious state of mental health care in this country. Do note though that I think this is a complicated situation. None of these things is caused by a single factor and the impulse is to find a simple explanation for complicated situations. One thing that I have noticed is a lot of these people seem to be losers in life, people that are socially awkward or having job or other personal issues. but any way here are a few examples to ponder.
2012 - Sandy Hook school; mass murderer Lanza on prescribed psychiatric drugs and killed 27 people including himself - the police have yet to release the psychiatric drugs he took
2009 - Columbine - mass murderer Eric Harrs killed 15 people and was on Luvox which has side effects of mania and violence.
2007 - Virginia Tech - mass murderer Cho Seung-Hui killed 32 people and was on Paxil
2005 - mass murderer Jeff Weise killed 9 people and wounded 5 and was on Prozac
2001 - mass murderer Andrea Yates drowned her 5 kids in a bathtub, was on Effexor
2001 - mass murderer Christopher Pittman killed his grandparents and was on Paxil and Zoloft
1998 - mass murderer Kip Kinkel killed 2 kids and wounded 22 others was on Prozac and Ritalin
1996 - murderer Kurt Danysh killed his father and was on Prozac
1989 - mass murderer Patrick Purdy killed 5 kids and wounded 30 was on Amitriptyline and Thorazine
1988 - mass murderer Laurie Dann killed 1 kid and wounded 6; she was on Anafranil and Lithium
1997 - mass murderer Michael Carneal killed 3 kids wounded 1 was on Ritalin
1989 - mass murderer Joespph Wesbacker killed 9 and wounded 18 others and was on Prozac
1981 - John Hinckley tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan, wounding him and James Brady, and was on Valium
just something to think about. Considering we have to tread a fine line on individuals privacy and public safety not sure what we could do here. As I stated before I am all for 100% background checks but from what I have read the compliance rate in Canada, 45 % is a number that is knocked around. Stil the challenge is how we can keep weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill and unstable people . What I have to wonder though is even if we could would it make any difference or would they just turn to some other means of killing people some of which are far more efficient than an AR15
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Post by tantalyr on Jan 15, 2013 0:55:25 GMT
That's a very interesting point, Jingles. What role, indeed, have prescription anti-psychotic/anti-depressant drugs played in these mass murders?
That is something else that has changed since 1980 that may have contributed to the spike in mass murders--the proliferation of anti-psychotic/anti-depressant drugs. Very much something to ponder . . . .
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Post by jingles on Jan 15, 2013 2:00:46 GMT
That's a very interesting point, Jingles. What role, indeed, have prescription anti-psychotic/anti-depressant drugs played in these mass murders? That is something else that has changed since 1980 that may have contributed to the spike in mass murders--the proliferation of anti-psychotic/anti-depressant drugs. Very much something to ponder . . . . we have always had mentally disturbed people, we have always had bullies, we had fewer gun control laws in the 50's and 60's. We had violence in movies and although it wasn't as graphic as it is today John Wayne killed a few million Germans, and Japanese, and American Indians every week in the matinee. When we were kids we would run through the woods with toy guns or sticks and "kill" each other repeatedly and while we could have went home, snuck in our closet to grab the .22 or squirrel gun and killing someone for real we never considered doing that. Worst thing I ever did was pop the neighborhood bullie in the head with a fair sized rock while he was attempting to beat the shit out of me. Got him a good one too and he reconsidered the wisdom of picking on me and found softer targets so to speak in the future. Me and my best friend had a kid style fist fight every 2 or 3 weeks but an hour later were running around or going fishing together again. So why is it suddenly the in thing to go out Call of Duty in the mall or school. That is the question that needs to be addressed, anything else is just using a band aid trying to stop the bleeding from a severed artery. I sure as fuck won't pretend to have the answer but I can pretty much guarantee that having insurance ion my gun won't do shit to stop it. BTW Frith how the fuck can your dad afford to shoot a full auto, you one of those 1 % er the libs hate so much I can get the class 3, might even swing the price of a weapon but even hand rolling my ammo I cant afford to feed one of those SOB's. 2 of the local ranges rent em but I have no desire to go through 50 or 100 dollars worth of ammo in 5 minutes or less. I splurged yesterday and shot up about 150 or 200 9's which I can handload for about a dime each. But I savored the experience over the course of a couple of hours and even at that mixed it up with some 3 cent each 22's. It would suck to reload for 2 or 3 hours then shoot them all in 10 minutes. I might apply for a class 3 suppressor ( silencer) for one of my 22's but I have to convince myself that the "cool" factor is worth 1000 bucks or so, and the chances of my tightwad ass doing that is slim to none One other last thought for the night there were 1,210 traffic deaths among children ages 0 to 14 years in 2010. 180 were killed with firearms, it sucks when any kid dies but lets not use their deaths as a political football./ A senseless death is a senseless death whether it was because mom had a couple too many glasses of white wine before picking Johny up at school or whether he died because his jackass dad thought leaving a .45 in the nightstand was the right way to store a gun
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Post by woooooooo on Jan 15, 2013 14:39:46 GMT
This shit has been going on a long time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disasterBath School Disaster. You want to read about a heartless SOB. He told his friends to 'head to the school', knowing it was packed with bombs. A lot of this lies at the feet of the Media who go from one event to the next, looking to boost ratings and viewer/readership.
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Post by jingles on Jan 15, 2013 15:36:50 GMT
This shit has been going on a long time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disasterBath School Disaster. You want to read about a heartless SOB. He told his friends to 'head to the school', knowing it was packed with bombs. A lot of this lies at the feet of the Media who go from one event to the next, looking to boost ratings and viewer/readership. Yeah the dude that did the Bath school bombing was about a fucked up individual. I read up on that and he was about a sadistic MF for years. I read he actually beat one or more of his farm animals to death What scares me though is one of these days one of these jerks will realize that while a AR15 looks cool it is pretty inefficient for short range mass killing. All of this publicity and political grandstanding is bring that fact out so don't be surprised if we get even more horrid headlines than Newtown in the next few months using a method other than a rifle
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Post by sheral on Jan 16, 2013 0:56:55 GMT
Fuck you. You ignorant, stupid dumbassed fuck. If you think that I was anything less than heartbroken by the fact that those kids died you can just go and fuck yourself with your stupid fucking guns. How many fucking times do I have to fucking say that I don't fucking want to take your fucking guns away before it gets through to your shrivelled, addled little oxygen-starved fucking brain, fuckwit? Here's a solution I know you'll love: let's have barbed wire and armed guards in schools instead, so you can protect their 'freedoms'. What a fucking joke. I'm done. Talking any kind of sense to your kind is like pissing in the wind. Dumb fucking cunt. vile hate filled crap ? try looking in the mirror Yeah, I went off on one, but you provoked that with your sick comment: So once again, fuck you. I'm pretty sure people who even think shit like that are fucked in the head. Maybe you should consider psychiatric help? Anyway, I'm pretty much done with this conversation. It's pointless and you're really not worth any more of my time.
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Post by FrithRae on Jan 16, 2013 6:28:15 GMT
That's a very interesting point, Jingles. What role, indeed, have prescription anti-psychotic/anti-depressant drugs played in these mass murders? That is something else that has changed since 1980 that may have contributed to the spike in mass murders--the proliferation of anti-psychotic/anti-depressant drugs. Very much something to ponder . . . . But association without context doens't help. You have to hold percentages of mass murders on XYZ drug (or specific drug combination) compared to the percentage of people on that drug who aren't mass murderers. And of course, compared to the percentage of mass murderers who aren't on any medications is also important. But I think for a different correlational reason. The percentages being what they are you can use that same percentage to make it seem like there's a same "link" between everything with that percentage among mass murderers. Like random things...eyecolor...choice in car color..what side of the bed they sleep on...wether they snore..or sleptwalk as a kid or..whatever random shit you can come upw ith. Much like people have the percentage of "deaths by hammer" and "deaths by assault rifle" trying to put it into some type of "context"...though the rules don't match up right. Yes, and in quite a fact we've always had mass murderers and serial killers and widely violent people. But your analogy falls apart with a happy childhood. I think the correlation between the medication and the mass murderers has more to do with what happens before they start takign the medicatin; than the medication itself. It starts very young, that type of mental instability. People with happy, healthy, carefree childhoods who never even thought about goign home and picking up a gun and hurting anyone as a solution to their problem - don't end up mass murdering people. And htat's why video games and everythign else are only loosely correlated; because it starts before that. It starts womb..it starts pre-age-5. This type of dysfunction'; the type that allows people to freely kill, without empathy, anyone else - it starts early.
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Post by FrithRae on Jan 16, 2013 6:44:26 GMT
Well my father is one of those Republicans liberals hate. But we're not part of the 1%. My father does like his toys though, and we generally don't ask how much they cost. He got the license and now has a fully automatic m1? No..maybe it is an ar15. Hell ,I don't ever remember..I'll have to check with the hubby and correct myself..lol.
And he goes out to the hunting camp with the state game warden to shoot coyotes with it. LOL The warden does the bait and my dad does the shooting.
And I've never asked him how much ammo he goes through. You just don't ask...its best to not know. LOL.
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Post by jingles on Jan 16, 2013 11:16:22 GMT
LOL Frith I was just pokin a bit of fun at you with the 1% comment I love my toys too and sometimes I think I spend way too much on them. Don't tell my wife I said that BTW interesting this has been kept rather low profile. At Sandy Hook the AR15 was left in the car according to NBC tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=2E10716E6FD870ADECD5461A6778F3ABof course there are so many conflicting reports now it's hard to figure out what the truth really is. Cannot find a date stamped copy of that video so take it with a grain of salt. I have noticed that Obama will surround himself with school children when he makes his announcement today, I am surprised they will not be showing the crime scene pics of the Newtown incident in the background. That would be much more theatrical for our pseudo PoTUS. In other news rumor has it Obama wants to rename the inauguration to coronation, much more suitable to his ahem " leadership " style
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Post by tantalyr on Jan 16, 2013 13:50:24 GMT
What the president announces this morning he proposes with respect to gun control--and how he intends to implement those proposals--will be very interesting.
For example, according to various reports from Congressmen involved in those discussions the president intends, among other things, to order the CDC to research gun violence in America, to close loopholes in such things as gun show sales, and to require more thorough background checks for those purchasing firearms. I don't have a problem either legally or metaphysically with any of those proposals, and am confident that he may legally implement those by dint of executive order as those proposals simply are a function of enforcing laws already passed by Congress.
On the other hand, were the president to propose, say, limiting the capacity of magazines to 5 rounds, I am convinced he would have to lobby Congress to enact that proposal as a law, rather than implementing it as an executive order. There is no existing law providing for such a restriction--nor could the interpretation of any be stretched to imply such a restriction--and, thus, that kind of proposal would have to be enacted by Congress. Keep in mind that the power of the presidency is restricted to enforcing the laws Congress has passed, not imposing any new laws by fiat.
I shall have to tune in as soon as I return from court today to see what--and how--the president proposes to do.
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Post by jingles on Jan 16, 2013 14:38:19 GMT
What the president announces this morning he proposes with respect to gun control--and how he intends to implement those proposals--will be very interesting. For example, according to various reports from Congressmen involved in those discussions the president intends, among other things, to order the CDC to research gun violence in America, to close loopholes in such things as gun show sales, and to require more thorough background checks for those purchasing firearms. I don't have a problem either legally or metaphysically with any of those proposals, and am confident that he may legally implement those by dint of executive order as those proposals simply are a function of enforcing laws already passed by Congress. On the other hand, were the president to propose, say, limiting the capacity of magazines to 5 rounds, I am convinced he would have to lobby Congress to enact that proposal as a law, rather than implementing it as an executive order. There is no existing law providing for such a restriction--nor could the interpretation of any be stretched to imply such a restriction--and, thus, that kind of proposal would have to be enacted by Congress. Keep in mind that the power of the presidency is restricted to enforcing the laws Congress has passed, not imposing any new laws by fiat. I shall have to tune in as soon as I return from court today to see what--and how--the president proposes to do. If he restricts his executive order to fine tuning background checks, more sharing of databases to weed out the crazies etc, and implementing 100% background checks even for private sales it will be one of the few things that he has done that I agree with 5 bucks says he will not step on the entertainment industries toes, they are big contributors to the Democratic party
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Post by jingles on Jan 16, 2013 17:41:18 GMT
People with happy, healthy, carefree childhoods who never even thought about goign home and picking up a gun and hurting anyone as a solution to their problem - don't end up mass murdering people. And htat's why video games and everythign else are only loosely correlated; because it starts before that. It starts womb..it starts pre-age-5. This type of dysfunction'; the type that allows people to freely kill, without empathy, anyone else - it starts early. interesting observations Frith. Just one thing. I did not mention. I had a pretty good set of parents but not all of us in the neighborhood were so lucky. One set of kids in particular had a sadistic SOB for a father. Out of 5 kids most grew up to be normal functioning adults as far as I know, I only knew the 2 youngest. Of those 2 one had drug/alcohol issues the youngest is Mr Joe Average Now my wife mentioned to me that one particular kid in her neighbor hood was in trouble constantly. he abused animals and eventually ended up in prison for murder. I will have to ask her the number of siblings he had but I know he had at least one minimum and possibly more than that who were normal everyday kids. Weird..same thing with a neighbor of mine in Florida, 5 kids and one of the middle daughters became a druggie and a prostitute. Rest of the kids were so normal it was boring. damnifiknow On Obama's proposals I have to say I agree with most. Only thing I have a issue with is the so called assault weapons. A every day AR15 with a 10 round magazines is no more deadly than a Remington 750 www.remington.com/product-families/firearms/centerfire-families/autoloading-model-750.aspx with a 10 round magazine. Actually it is less deadly because the smallest caliber a 750 comes in is 243 which packs a lot more power than a 223. Comparing a AR15 to a military weapon is like calling one of those old Volkswagen kit cars a Shelby 350 or a Ferrari
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Post by FrithRae on Jan 18, 2013 21:29:05 GMT
Oh Absolutely Jingles..
And that's why as I mentioned in the thread earlier; its not a matter of simply an MRI or putting everyone who had a shitty childhood on a watch list for violence.
Its the coming together of a number of factors; along with either genetic or biological/brain damage markers that prone someone to having problems with attachment development/empathy etc. And just having the problems only puts you at higher risk for doing something like murder...
There is no "this happened to you - so you will end up doing this" in the world of human behavior.
In your examples:
The first family - of the 2 with alcohl isues an the others being fine - there are distinct personality differences in the development and progression of those children within that family. I would argue the "normal" kids aren't all that "normal" at all compared to someone who didn't have a sadistic SOB for a father - but you are right in that something allowed them to not turn to a life of substance abuse; where their siblings faltered.
The family with the kid who abused animals, but possibly had normal siblings. My first instinct is that something happened to that one child; that perhaps noone knows about but him even; that didn't happen to anyone in teh rest of the family. Some sort of sexual truama or abuse or something (not necesarily by anyoen in his immediate family) that caused him to lash out soo angrily at those at a yougn age; along with animals. But I also would not be surprised if nothing else different happened ot him but - if we have the medical expertise to see it - he has some brain abnormalities or chemical differences than the "normal" brain; to result in such behavior. Animal cruelty is a huge marker for future violence; as it shows immediately an impairment in empathy of the person doing the abusing (as I commented on in a previous post).
Third family - same thing. I'm absolutely positive that something happened the the middle daughter that didn't happen tot he rest of the family, to end up with her being a druggie and prostitute.
But - we digress; drug abuse is an entirely different set of problems seperate from mass murders. You can have the perfect childhood, then have a single event happen, that turns someone towards drug abuse. Its an entirely different beast than what turns someone to murdering rampages. Not the same criminal, not the same background/profile.
Its why I argue for the education o n all fronts; both gun education and classes/testing for firearm purchasses; along with education local law enforcement, teachers, librarians, anyone with exposure to children and teenagers - on the warning signs of a child in serious trouble. Not just "quiet Johnny" trouble; but behaviors that indicate a lack of development of empathy, and/or developing narcissism (more than a regular teenager LOL) that one invariably finds in anyone who does major, violent, crimes.
And education on the populace at whole on the state of mental health and the lack of care that needs to be fixed. Generations of families still suffer in complete and total silence; due to the black-sheep labeling of anyone who admits to any type of difficulties with mental health issues (from just depression and anxiety to bigger issues). Neighbors, friends, even other family members - feeling something is "off" but noone having any idea when someone is struggling with serious mental health issues in themselves or in someone they love. Because our society is so focused on judgement instead of reaching out to understand and help.
Abuse victims have been allowed to come out of the darkness. Now its time to turn that awareness on mental health and banish the stereotype that the mentally ill have something to be ashamed off; as if they have direct personal responsibility and somehow; "Just need more willpower" to overcome their problems.
Because 9 times out of 10 its a chemical problem; a huge personality development issue - not just a "snap out of it - get over it - will yourself better and if you can't something's wrong with YOU" problem.
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Post by woooooooo on Jan 21, 2013 13:39:39 GMT
So you asshats ran Sheral off again. LOL.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2013 15:07:18 GMT
So... should we be surprised that there were 3 shooting accidents at gun shows over the past week? All of them related to stupidity by the gun owners.
And that some idiot mother sent a loaded handgun to school with her son in his backpack.
And the NRA thinks we should arm more people? Many of the people who own them now probably shouldn't.
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