Israel is just Cutting the Grass

[Pharcellus]

I think Cenk hit the nail on the head with this one:



We really need to stop giving anything other than humanitarian aid to any of these assholes in the Middle East, blockade their asses, let their idiotic regimes collapse (including Israel), and then let them rebuild correctly, if they ever want to see another penny from us or anyone else.

I'd like to see a technological blockade of the entire region. You all want to fight and kill each other and keep on doing it ad infinitum? Fine, do it with rocks and sticks. When you grow up and form a real progressive, secular, and practical government, THEN we'll let you back out of the sandbox. Until then, go pound sand. No money, no tech, no weapons, no support, no trade. Food, water, and medicine is all you get.

[xaeris]

I'm of a mind to agree these days.

They all sound like petty schoolchildren squabbling at recess. Now... I'm more inclined to agree with Israel's side than Hamas to be honest. Who likes terrorists who hide behind civilians like cowards and then demonize the other side when said civilians inevitably get killed when Israel gets tired of their shit and shells them anyways?

But yeah, I don't understand why the Hell we're selling them weapons and crap like that. Our own economy is tanking and we're shipping expensive weapons to foreign countries so they can kill each other? lol?

I'd rather we pull our noses out of everybody else's business and focus on OUR OWN NATION. You can't solve anybody's problems unless you've no problems of your own. And we have Plenty of problems, we don't need everybody else's on top of ours. Unless, of course, anybody gets the stupid idea to point a gun at us. Then that's different.

Maybe the terrorists wouldn't be trying to kill us constantly if we'd keep our noses in our own business and stop trying to tell everybody else what they should do and how they should do it. I mean, face it... we went into Iraq and ousted Hussein, right? How well did that turn out for the Iraqis in the end run? Last I read of that particular subject, there's a rebel group overpowering the government's forces, marching right towards Baghdad.

So what are we gonna do? Go march into Iraq again? *sigh* More wasted money that we could have used to help our own economy, and more lives wasted..

[Deleted]

I can't support either of them at this point, but I feel far more for the regular Palestinians caught in the bombings. A UN school? Seriously? At this point, it sure does look to me like Israel is waging a war of genocide.

2000 rockets fired into your land, 1 person killed. How does that equate to 1200+ Palestinians, including children in schools, killed? It doesn't.

Israel could have at least gotten some peace with them years ago if they would have stopped building houses on occupied land. But no, they had to keep instigating it. And then they are surprised when rockets are fired at them and bombs are blown up?

[tantalyr]

Imagine this . . .

Los Zetas and/or the Sinaloa cartel amass rockets and begin firing them into San Diego, El Paso, McAllen, Brownsville, Laredo and other border cities indiscriminately killing American civilians and just whomever might be in the way of the rockets' landing spots. The American government demands that the Mexican government immediately take action to stop the cartels. Due to corruption, ineptitude or just plain inability, the Mexican can't (or won't) stop the rocket firing by the cartels. What would we want our government to do?

I, and I suspect just a whole lot of other Americans, would insist that our government send in our troops to take care of the problem. However long it takes. Whatever it takes. And it would be just real sad if, like Hamas, the cartels hide their missile caches in schools and hospitals, and use Mexican civilians as human shields. But if it takes shelling schools and hospitals to prevent the cartels from firing rockets and killing Americans every day, then I suspect most Americans would not condemn our government (and military) for doing so.

[Pharcellus]

I've heard this ridiculous analogy a hundred times already this go-around, and it makes even less sense the more people tell it.

First of all, the Hamas rocket attacks are HUGELY ineffective on their own, let alone with the new sophisticated defense systems in place (like Iron Dome). After a couple of decades, and thousands of rockets fired, Hamas has manged to kill 28 people, albeit injuring thousands.

Secondly, we don't directly oppress the Zetas/Sinaloas in an open-air prison the size of downtown Los Angeles. We also don't invade parts of Mexico and put in settlements.

I would most certainly not insist that our government bomb schools, hospitals, churches, let alone refugee shelters operated by the UN. There is no way I could support the killing of more innocents in a ham-fisted attempt to stop largely ineffective guerilla attacks. I WOULD insist that the government do everything in its power to take out militant targets, embargo/blockade cities and towns harboring them, but still do everything possible and reasonable to get them to the peace negotiations table. Pull the settlements out of "Mexico", make promises which condone peace, and stick to them.

The problem is the right-wing fascists have taken over the Israeli government, and they have no truck with peace. They WANT Hamas to keep fighting; it gives them an excuse to continue their plans of expansion, dominance (imperialism), and eventual annexation of more territory.

The one thing you said that I do have to agree with is that the "American people" would be very reactionary to it, and the right-wing fascists in our government would seize on that wholeheartedly. What our government would do to Mexico as a result would make the Gaza conflict look like a petty squabble. That's why we have to fight against the urge to kill even more innocent people for no good reason. Yes, we should defend ourselves, but we should do so intelligently and not just blindly retaliate (though I would not call what Netenyahu and crew have been doing "blind retaliation" -- it has been deliberate and calculated from the beginning).

If we (and the Israelis) really want peace, we really need to do what is necessary to make peace happen, and it's never going to happen on the trajectory Israel is on now (and I argue that is by design of the current regime).

[xaeris]

I had some thoughts earlier today about this whole topic:

The way I see it, is a playground at recess.

You got two kids, one of them is a big muscled bully, and the other is a scrawny wimp. The big muscled kid decides he's going to sit down at the scrawny kid's table and force the scrawny kid to move somewhere else. Bully move, sure. The scrawny wimp decides that he's going to slap the bully, knowing there are teachers in the room.

The bully tells the kid not to do that, but the wimp does it again. The bully goes "okay, buddy, you slap me one more time and you're gonna get it." The wimp does exactly that -- slaps the bully, again. The bully has enough of the wimp's shit, and full-on decks the wimp across the face, maybe even breaking the wimp's jaw in the process. Of course, NOW the Teachers intervene and NOW the Bully is made out to be evil, etc. The bully warned the wimp several times to cut his shit, but the wimp kept it up and pissed the bully off. Of course the wimp did; he knew the teachers'd be on his side once he provoked a beat-down.

Hamas is basically the wimp. They're a scrawny little kid with weapons that can't possibly hurt Israel, but they keep shooting those rockets. Why? They're trying to provoke Israel into shooting back, just like the wimp is trying to provoke the bully. But just like the wimp, Hamas finds that the results of such provocation might be a little more than they wanted -- the wimp just wanted a bruise or a couple punches and wound up with a broken jaw. Hamas wanted Israel to shoot and provoke the other nations to be angry at them (and/or the UN), but they wound up with a lot of downed buildings, the power grid being hit, and lots of people dying.

And they keep shooting the rockets, despite cease-fires being called, knowing the rockets can't hurt much of anybody!.

I'm sorry, I can't hold any sympathy for Hamas here. Israel is obviously falling right into Hamas's traps and alienating themselves from a lot of other people in the world, but yet Hamas is definitely not innocent in here either. C'mon, using civilians as human shields? Placing military targets in UN refugee shelters?

The only bad thing about this whole thing, are the civilians getting killed. Hopefully the wipe the rest of the Hamas out entirely, though I doubt that'd ever happen. In Either Case, as Phar said in the OP, we need to stop helping both sides and let them kill each other until the fighting stops. Best-case scenario, we let the non-Hamas civilians escape Gaza and let them live somewhere else as long as they don't become terrorists.

[Deleted]

Several issues though.

First, Hamas is NOT representative of 100% of the Palestinians. Just as the Israeli military is not 100% representative of all of Israel's citizens. So, its not a bully beating up a wimp.

Second, Israel has through years of conflict placed millions of Palestinians into a situation of abject poverty. There's few jobs, poor healthcare, daily stress and grief, and no hope for a better future. Who wouldn't be angry, particularly kids growing up in that type of environment? They have no control over their future beyond this.

Third, Israel has been the target of decades of hatred from the entire region including on-going death-threats to their existence. Who wouldn't be willing to lash out with force if you'd fought that many wars and faced daily potential threats to your life?

Fourth, Israel continues to instigate the matter by allowing settlers to build on what they already know is contested land. I get it, you feel you have a right to exist as a state and a people, but why allow your people to continually poke sticks into the eyes of your enemies when you full well know it will enrage them?

The issues are not so cut and dried as it might seem. No side is without blame in this, including the US who has offered blind military and monetary support for years. We need to stop giving them money and arms and start forcing them to sit down and truly engage with the Palestinians.

The other thing that people need to do is remember that there are people, innocents, on both sides. Hamas is not 100% of Palestine, the majority of Palestinians do not want to die or fight, they want to live their lives. The same as in Israel. Both groups are not composed entirely of murdering psychopaths as the other side would like us to believe.

We need to remember our humanity and consider the innocents. One side cannot win or lose, both must come out with some sort of victory in order to move on.

[FrithRae]

And all of this over a strip of "Holy" land.

Israel never backed off. And neither will Gaza/Hammas. It will keep going until one side obliterates the other - one way or another (whether through their own bombs, government sanctions, the rest of the world stepping in...whatever..).

It was going on long before the US stepped in, and it will con't to go on.

But no, we need to stop selling everyone weapons.

If we're not willing to do what it takes to end it (and we're not), then we're wasting our time, energy, money, and lives.

If we let it go "on their own" there will absolutely be Genocide. If we don't stop it, it won't ever stop. There is no right or wrong answer here.

And to try and suddenly close up our borders and "mind our own business" like we won't be affected by what happens is ignorant and blind. If the entire region goes/falls into war because we didn't want to get involved - then its all over but the shouting (as in WWIII).

Is this entirely pointless and a waste? 200% Yes. Is there any way out of it that makes anything better for anyone?

Only if Israel stops and gives it up - lets Palestine have their "homeland" and just STOP. Then we can all send in Seal units and take out Hammas. If Israel stopped, Hammas would have no recruits in the future - there's nothing left to fight against.

Any other solution makes nothing better for no one. Including the world, and us, and our futures. WWI was started over less than this.

[tantalyr]

Aug 5, 2014 18:12:44 GMT FrithRae said:

And all of this over a strip of "Holy" land.

Israel never backed off. And neither will Gaza/Hammas. It will keep going until one side obliterates the other - one way or another (whether through their own bombs, government sanctions, the rest of the world stepping in...whatever..).

It was going on long before the US stepped in, and it will con't to go on.

But no, we need to stop selling everyone weapons.

If we're not willing to do what it takes to end it (and we're not), then we're wasting our time, energy, money, and lives.

If we let it go "on their own" there will absolutely be Genocide. If we don't stop it, it won't ever stop. There is no right or wrong answer here.

And to try and suddenly close up our borders and "mind our own business" like we won't be affected by what happens is ignorant and blind. If the entire region goes/falls into war because we didn't want to get involved - then its all over but the shouting (as in WWIII).

Is this entirely pointless and a waste? 200% Yes. Is there any way out of it that makes anything better for anyone?

Only if Israel stops and gives it up - lets Palestine have their "homeland" and just STOP. Then we can all send in Seal units and take out Hammas. If Israel stopped, Hammas would have no recruits in the future - there's nothing left to fight against.

Any other solution makes nothing better for no one. Including the world, and us, and our futures. WWI was started over less than this.

A bit of history Frith . . . .

Prior to the British withdrawal from Palestine, the UN in both 1947 and 1948 twice proposed that the former British colony be split into two states--Israel and a separate Palestinian state. Israel accepted these proposals, but the Palestinians (and other Arab countries) refused each proposal. The Palestinians demanded a one-state solution--Palestine alone. And since 1948, when Britain withdrew from the territory, a number of Arab countries and many Palestinians made it a publicly declared tenet of their policy that Israel be completely wiped off the face of the earth. This policy led to three different wars in 1948, 1956 and 1973, all of which ended decisively in Israel's favor.

Focusing now strictly upon the Gaza strip, that strip of desert has enjoyed but one brief period of even quasi-independence--from 1948 until 1959 when it was formally annexed by Egypt. After the 1973 war, Israel took over administration of the strip (along with the rest of the Sinai Peninsula) from Egypt. Under the Oslo Accords of 1993, Israel agreed to grant control of the strip to the newly created Palestinian National Authority, and in 2005 fully disengaged from the strip and forcibly evicted Israeli settlers from the territory. But two years later, Hamas seized control of the strip after a civil war with Fatah (the governing body of the PNA) and almost immediately began firing rockets into Israel, thus starting the first cycle of Hamas rockets-Israeli retaliation. Since 2007 the strip has seen three such cycles, the latest (of course) just now beginning to wind down.

Israel has repeatedly affirmed for the past half century that it is still amenable to an independent Palestinian state, but the primary prerequisite for such a solution is Palestinian acceptance of the Israeli state. Hamas adamantly refuses to accept the existence of Israel and repeatedly vows to exterminate the entire country (Iran and Syria have the same policy, as did Iraq under Saddam Hussein--Egypt officially accepted the state of Israel under the Camp David Accords and has been at peace with Israel ever since).

So, the nut of the problem is NOT some sort of Israeli intransigence over a two-state solution. The root problem is Hamas's continued refusal to recognize Israel as a nation. I am convinced that American (and other countries') Middle Eastern policy should be devoted to getting Palestinian acceptance of the sovereignty of Israel. Once that happens, I've no doubt that Israel will once again accept a separate, independent Palestinian state.

And by the way, do you really think that if the United States unilaterally stopped selling weapons and other military supplies to Israel, other nations (notably Russia, France and Germany, not to mention Iran and North Korea) would stop selling their arms to Middle Eastern countries and/or Hamas?

[Kulamata]

What a succinct summary Tant!

 
I'd only add that the refusal of the adjoining nations to accept Palestinian refugees that were displaced by the new state of Israel  led to generations of increasingly radicalized refugee camp "graduates" which have been a major factor in keeping the pot boiling. That plus the illegal land seizures, settlements, and security measures of Israeli ultra-conservatives has created large minorities in both countries who oppose any rational settlement.