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Post by Pharcellus on Aug 25, 2014 22:59:35 GMT
Lately, it seems like the social justice warriors (in this case, "militant feminists") have invaded the gaming industry, its communities, and the game development studios and conventions themselves. From Anita Sarkeesian, to the latest Zoe Quinn debacle, and Dina Abou Karam.
It's not so much the issue of bringing more females into the gaming communities and industry, but these idiots create false dilemmas, and bring professional victimhood as well as moral decay into our society. Their motives and methods are suspect, their research is shoddy, if not outright plagiarized, and they are doing more damage to the very cause they are claiming to be their raison d'etre.
Anita Sarkeesian even won the GDC 2014 "Ambassador of the Year" award. WTF?
Worse, if you DARE speak out against these idiots by pointing out the flaws in their methods and research, you are wantonly attacked by their rabid fanbase, and they play a victim card from the full deck to fan the resultant flames even more.
There was a time, years ago, when "feminist" meant something really important; something that I was proud to support; but now, it has turned into a whiny entitlement pity-party group that I want no part of.
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xaeris
Apprentice of Rant
Posts: 462
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Post by xaeris on Aug 26, 2014 0:53:13 GMT
This is how it always goes for people who want more than what they have.
They get what they want.......and they want EVEN MORE.
Remember Affirmative Action? Yes, minorities being biased against was entirely wrong. But discriminating against whites is just as wrong! Now we're seeing the same thing going on with Women and of course if you DARE say that Women are wanting more than their fare share, then you get slapped with the "MRA" label... even if all you wanted as equality between the genders (within reason of course).
It is just entirely ridiculous. In the workplace IRL, women want the same pay as men.... hey fine. They should have to do the same amount of work as a man in the same position, though. But that hardly ever happens, does it? Many women make the men do all the heavy lifting, and they want the same pay. lol. That doesn't hardly seem fair.
And as for Ms. Five Guys Burgers and Fries... I hope she gets bombed into oblivion by all the online hate from these places, and I hope that there's enough good people out there that can shut down these sites that are forcing people to stay quiet about the whole thing. Sticking SJWs in all the mod positions and then "shadow-banning" people who speak out against it is just ridiculous.
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Post by FrithRae on Aug 27, 2014 18:05:07 GMT
Considering I have no idea who any of those people are, never heard their names, nor have any clue what you're talking about...
I'd say they're getting a lot less attention than they, or you, may think they are. =D Perhaps victims of their own Hype, or the importance (lack thereof) of any official award of anything... GDC award? and...?
No really, I game, I read forums, many gaming forums.. and I still have never seen those names lol.
~~~
Xaeris -
And the fact that you defend women getting less pay in the work place because some can't lift heavy boxes? Really?
And "now" its the women? Really? Should it not strike you as odd that we're having to say anything at all? That yes, even decades after Affirmitive Action women ARE still getting less pay for the same positions - for NO reason (and no, including those where there is no heavy lifting... and they do actually work just as hard as men...)
Really? Hardly ever happens that a women works as hard as a man in the same job?
Seriously?
Your misogyny is showing...and its pretty ugly. Seriously, do you even know how offensive what you just spouted off is?
Do you realize that the "glass ceiling" is a real thing for women? That yes, women do get statistically less pay then men in a variety of positions. And again, not counting the ones that require the moving of heavy boxes...
Or do you just not exist in an actual adult, real world, job?
~~
And no I don't give two shits what some women on a forum are or are not doing. But your comments in the middle there are far more wide reaching than some femi-nazi gamer girls I've never heard of. You weren't bashing them, you were bashing the entire idea that women should get equal pay.
And it shoudlnt' be about who "deserves" equal pay. It should be "All Humans Are Paid the Same for the Same Position." Period.
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xaeris
Apprentice of Rant
Posts: 462
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Post by xaeris on Aug 30, 2014 3:24:33 GMT
@frith:
I said women (and men, by extension) should get equal pay for equal work.
Read that again.
"They should have to do the same amount of work as a man in the same position."
What is unfair/misogynist about that?
"Many women want men to do all the heavy lefting, and they want the same pay."
They do less work... and want the same pay.
How is that fair?
And let's be quite clear here: a man doing less work should get less pay too. It doesn't have to do with gender, it has to do with the person (man OR woman) doing less work for the same pay as their harder working co-workers.
But of course like many other women, you reply to half of what I said, but not the other half, lol. Same thing every other woman I ever said this in earshot does.
You find it offensive that someone who does less work should get less pay? wtf? I'd love to know how that works.
EDIT: And I'm not even saying anything about "Statistics". I'm not talking about statistics. I'm talking about how it _should_ be. I know that's not how it is, but I've seen situations in which the woman _was_ getting the same pay, but still complaining. Even when they DO get the same pay, they still find things to complain about.
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Post by Pharcellus on Sept 3, 2014 14:03:06 GMT
Remember Affirmative Action? Yes, minorities being biased against was entirely wrong. But discriminating against whites is just as wrong! No. Affirmative Action was a response to institutional racism. Regardless of the fact that the Law of the Land made discrimination illegal, there was (and still is) a huge undercurrent against blacks in the general society. I don't like it myself, but I understand why it was necessary, since there was no way to excise the "soft racism" inherent in people's beliefs and attitudes. I don't think you can draw a proper parallel between Affirmative Action and the Feminist movement. There isn't anything like Affirmative Action for women. Should there be? There is most certainly institutional sexism. I don't think it is as bad as for blacks, however. I don't think they need to have the same exact position as men to be able to earn the same pay. Pay is a strange animal anyway.. what objective metric or set of metrics determines what any one position gets paid? Answer: there isn't any. Should there be? Personally, I think so, but then we start venturing into capitalism vs communism argument territory. I do think the concept of "an honest day's pay for an honest day's work" needs more than a little clarifying, though. Personally, I wish the trolls would ignore her; all it does is create and justify more white-knightism in people and spread her garbage even farther from the Streisand Effect. That said, now that she's been given all the attention she craves and more, more reasoned people now have to contend with the monster we, collectively, have created. That means that we're going to have to deal with the throngs of rabid fans for some time to come. |
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Post by Pharcellus on Sept 3, 2014 14:20:17 GMT
Considering I have no idea who any of those people are, never heard their names, nor have any clue what you're talking about... Ignorance isn't an excuse for further ignorance.  Really? Have you checked out ANY of the gaming media sites in the last few weeks, especially last week? I don't think there is a single one which hasn't had some article or editorial on the issue. It was repeatedly brought up in several Dragon*Con panels this past weekend. Well, if you read "many" gaming forums and STILL haven't heard or seen anything outside of here, then I would tend to question the level of isolation of whatever passes for "Frithy Gaming Forums".  I don't think that was quite what he was saying. More like.. if you have a woman who is hired to lift heavy boxes, but she doesn't pull her own weight in the position, she shouldn't get paid the same. Metric-wise, that makes sense, but the real issue is that women probably aren't going to perform as well in some positions as a man, and probably shouldn't take those positions. I think this is something that should be considered on a by-person basis, however. I also believe the converse of this is true; that there are some positions where men probably aren't going to perform as well as women, and probably shouldn't take those positions. Again, a by-person basis should be the rule. You should; it ultimately is going to affect the games you and the rest of us play. Well, I mean, if you care about that, anyway. |
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Post by Pharcellus on Sept 3, 2014 14:22:03 GMT
BTW, in the previous post about Affirmative Action, I think we were talking specifically about quotas, not AA in general. AA in general has covered women since 1967.
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Post by Pharcellus on Sept 4, 2014 22:10:21 GMT
Just a quick question for Frithy in this subject:
Do you have any links to the latest research into the effects of video game / media violence on people, including specifically against women?
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Post by FrithRae on Sept 9, 2014 17:51:24 GMT
I have no links, the only thing I know is that the latest research indicates there is no connection at all to video games and violence... against women or otherwise.
You find it offensive that someone who does less work should get less pay? wtf? I'd love to know how that works.
I quoted what the words mean, as you seem to be having an issue understanding the word.
The whole use of "Many women", and "like many other women..."
I responded to everything you said, not half. And I could make a statement here about "just like a man not listening" but really... that's just silly if you don't even see your bais.
Guess what, if you open the argument with "many women don't want to move heavy boxes...and ask for same pay..." then you're already destroying everything that comes after - even if its more logical and less offensive and insulting.
Cuz you just gave away your REAL opinion on the subject, no matter how you insist "I am about equal pay." You then go on insubsequent posts, to prfove again your REAL opinion..
Which is "Women are bitches and they have it good wth are they complaining for? No reason they are women!?"
That's the take away I get from your statements.
And no, if a woman is hired to move boxes and doesn't move any boxes - I don't expect her to get less pay I expect her to get fired. But if you're in an office job the same as everyone else, and you happen to ask someone to move a box for you - that doesn't mean they should make less an hour.
Your illustrations/examples prove more to me how out of touch you are with the women working, and moving heavy boxes, in the work force and who is asking for equal pay.
No, its isn't the woman on the warehouse floor asking for equal pay while not moving boxes. Its the woman hired as equal rated position as a businesswoman but her starting salary and raises are still lower than a man in the same positions.
Btw, I know plenty of women who lift heavy boxes, operate in warehouses, and work 80 hours welding along with men. I don't know their paychecks but guess what - there is no such thing as "Man jobs" and "women jobs" anymore. Fucking ignorant asshat.
You don't even see how what you're saying is as equally offensive as telling the black person that their lunch is the same, even if they can't eat at the same table.
And that's how insidious it is.
Fact: People at all levels of jobs and unemployment want to bitch and complain and get something for nothing. This has nothing to do with women so.... try another argument.
Fact: Women are getting less pay, less promotions, and smaller wages - FOR NO REASON other than men decide not to because they are women. Whether they are "bitches" or "bossy" or "trying to be a man" or whatever that has nothing to do with the JOB THEY ARE DOING - shouldn't come into it. There should be objective, defined, standards with objective, defined, salaries and raises.
Guess what - its not complaining and moaning if the issue doesn't exist. Fact: IT DOES. Therefore yes, even if I MYSELF am making the same as a man, doesn't mean I shouldn't bitch and complain.
I'm a woman right? I'm gonna complain anyway... *rolls eyes*
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Kulamata
Unemployed
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Post by Kulamata on Sept 9, 2014 21:35:33 GMT
Yeah, but when it comes to moving boxes, women can't lift a forklift like a man can! So there!
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Post by tantalyr on Sept 9, 2014 23:08:25 GMT
Yeah, but when it comes to moving boxes, women can't lift a forklift like a man can! So there! Ever watch the penultimate scene of Aliens? I'll pay Sigourney Weaver whatever she wants to move boxes, aliens . . . . On a side note, in the original screenplay for Alien the role of Ripley was written for a man to play . . . . . . |
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xaeris
Apprentice of Rant
Posts: 462
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Post by xaeris on Sept 17, 2014 1:54:20 GMT
Nice troll attempt, Frith, except that is NOT what I said.
I SAID, "I find it offensive that someone who does less work should get the SAME pay."
Get it right.
Two people, same pay, one does less work. How is that right? Don't twist my words around.
You quoted my words, then added your own opinion of what you want them to mean, to make me look evil.
Many, not all. I specifically said that. Not all women act like this, I admitted to that several times. Many of the ones I met, have. We can only see the world through our own eyes, ne?
Again, I see the world through my own eyes, and what I've seen over the years I've worked, are most (except for two) women getting the same (or more!) pay than me, but doing only a quarter of the actual work.
Can you even Try to explain to me how that is right?
Oh, and don't get me wrong -- there's a guy there right now who gets just a smidge less than me (the difference is less than 30 cents an hour) who does a third of my work and I don't like that either. I do way more work, and I've been there way longer than he has, but he gets almost the same pay I do. Drives me nuts. And he's a guy. So no, I don't care about gender.
I was only "destroying everything that comes after" only because you like to jump to conclusions after reading one sentence, which is what a lot of short attention span people like to do. Ever try NOT forming opinions based upon the first few words? I thought you were better than this. I shouldn't need to put TL:DR; at the very beginning of each post so you don't jump to conclusions instead of waiting until you've read the whole thing like any smart person should have done.
My "Real" Opinion? If you were actually paying attention, and NOT jumping to conclusions, and NOT rewording what I said to twist it to what YOU want it to mean, you would have seen my real opinion is REALLY:
"Work more = get more pay. Work less = get less pay regardless of gender." Which I stated several times in this thread.
Not once did I say anything that remotely translates to this. You had to do some serious re-wording of what I wrote to even try to arrive at that solution.
Because that's what you WANT it to mean.
Is it done consistently? If so, then the person asking the other person (again regardless of gender) is doing far less work for the same pay. Person A is lifting all the heavy boxes and doing all the same duties that Person B is doing on top of that, but is taking home the same pay. That isn't even remotely fair.
Why should the person lifting all the heavy crap do a good slice more work but get the same pay as the person who doesn't lift anything at all?
*shrugs* I call it the way I see it.
That is wrong, sure. If they do indeed to the same work, then yes. They deserve equal pay. But anytime you start a "movement" or "crusade" or what-not, that spreads to everywhere..... including you guessed it, the warehouse floor. The businesswomen asking for equal pay is fine, the problem arises when other women (the ones I referred to -- the ones who refuse to lift anything heavy) decide to jump on that wagon too.
Hence why I said 'many' and not 'all'. As I've said in this thread, I've known a few myself. A few. Amongst far more. For every 1 woman I've known that'll jump in there and grab a heavy ass crate, there's at least 10 that ask the guys to lift anything heavier than 5lbs.
Oh, and nice name-calling there. Is that what we're resorting to now?
Okay, now we're comparing "Equal Work = Equal Pay, Less Work = Less Pay" to Racism? lol. Gotta love the far-reaching comments there. I thought you were better than this.
I've said nothing 'insidious' in the whole thread... you, however, have been re-wording what I wrote to twist it around to mean what you think it means, to make me look evil. So WHO is REALLY being insidious here, again?
Oh sure, that's completely true.
However, we need not give them the tools to do so, mmmm? Yes, let's give equal pay to those who do equal work. Sure, I'm all for that! It is only fair. But let's keep the keys away from the people who feel self-entitled, mmm?
Did I say anything to the contrary? No, I did not.
Again, "Equal Work = Equal Pay".
That's what I've been saying in the whole thread. If a woman wants equal pay, she's gotta put out equal work as her peers. If she does, then she can (and should!) get equal pay, along with the guys and other women, and everybody in her field. That's how it should be.
The issue exists, yes, but what was meant from the start, is 'be careful of fanning the flames too much.'
Yes, we want equal pay for equal work, and that's how the system should work, but we really need to keep the self-entitled lazy people (men AND women, yet again) from reaching for the pot to dip their grubby fingers into it when they don't deserve it (because they do less work).
EDIT: I really hope I have all the formatting right, lots of BBCode tags.....
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xaeris
Apprentice of Rant
Posts: 462
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Post by xaeris on Sept 17, 2014 2:07:50 GMT
Sigourney Weaver is, like, the role model for women, lol. Or at least she should be. She shows what women are really capable of, if they'd only Try. We need more like her to be famous, seriously.
But sadly, most women I've known are worried about breaking fingernails and bossing me around to lift 5lb crates. I know they CAN handle it on their own, they CHOOSE not to.
And then there's that lazy guy too I mentioned above. I'm always picking up after his messes. This has nothing to do with misogyny, I don't have anything against women because they're women; it is more because women are more likely to do those sorts of things. I dislike those _types_ of women. Just like I don't like working with lazy men. I don't hate all men because some are lazy, just like I don't hate all women because some are lazy. In fact, one of the two women mentioned above, I'm good friends with, because... well, she's not lazy. She dives right in even when I offer to help.
The whole thing that started this thread, was women collectively saying "we want equal pay!".
That's all fine and dandy, and fair.
As I said before: Women should get equal pay as long as they do equal work, just like any guy.
And I'm quite sure a certain someone will C&P this, and reword it to make me sound evil or something, lol.
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Post by tantalyr on Oct 16, 2014 9:10:19 GMT
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Post by Pharcellus on Oct 17, 2014 7:07:06 GMT
Yeah, I am aware. Been battling idiots all day long in YT comments sections.
Also encountered a surprising number of very smart and articulate people, which I didn't expect.
It's a god damned mess, though, and it is showing no signs of slowing down. Better strap in for the long haul.
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