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Rift
Jan 3, 2011 23:41:52 GMT
Post by Algenon on Jan 3, 2011 23:41:52 GMT
Straight to end game/shootser style isn't an MMORPG its an MMOFPS No, no it isn't. If I had meant that, I would've said that. What I am saying is, let people create their character with skill points or whatever, let them 'be' level 50 at the start, give them a training ground to practice etc and assign their keys, work out combos/optimum groups etc, then spend all your other dev/creation cash on making the instances/PVP areas, instead of loads of pointless areas that most people will run through for maybe two days as they 'level' through it. I'm offering it as an idea, really. Don't want levels - go play Eve. Please, you know me a little, right? You don't think I know what a MMO is, now you think I don't know about EVE? You played it. Not fun for you. Move on. Wow, the insult my intelligence is in top gear now. Thanks, really... But no, that magical game isn't going to exist. ALL Games build majorly on what has been done and come before. If you are LUCKY one game every few years puts something actually "innovative" (as opposed to being called and described innovatively but getting in game and finding out its the same thing...) and different. But no, the vast majority are the same. Please try to treat me like an adult who has been playing these games for years and who is just trying to make a few comments on what I personally see as a disappointment - first you go tell me to go play EVE, now you say that innovative game isn't going to exist - while telling me innovation does come along every couple of years... On EVE, it is one of the few MMO games that has really done well (within its business model) but despite this, we're still seeing seemingly endless copycats of fantasy MMOs that are failing. It doesn't make any sense to me - I don't see, after this many failures, why people are persisting with them. How many examples of failures do we need? Also, how is saying 'the vast majority are the same', or 'you're magical game isn't going to happen', take debate on in any way at all? You have to see that there are gaping holes in the market for games that aren't WoW clones. And while you may think every game copies off others to the nth degree - and apparently you think that's OK - I think you need to go back to recent history. Right now, we have the likes of WoW, LoTRO, EQ2, FF, maybe Conan and Warhammer, now Rift (Alganon too?), then EVE and I don't know, CoH? The first 8 of those you can pretty much throw a blanket over in terms of almost every important element of the game (except PvP). There has been a horrible coming together, if you compare that list to the days of EQ, DAoC, AO, UO, even Meridian and The Realm - arguably the biggest six games in the genre before things started to head towards the horrible 'perfect storm' you describe that has led us to where we seem to be today. I used to have six or seven RL friends who played MMOs, now it's me and one other (who mostly plays WoW). All the others are waiting for something else to come along and not be like WoW, while being at least half decent. And hey, I'm not raining on WoW either - I played it from beta to the first expansion and had a lot of fun. I have no interest in going back, having watched others playing beyond, but it's clearly a remarkable achievement and a hugely strong title. I don't see anyone "singing praises" like this is the next big thing... You'll never see me heralding or calling for the shutdown of anything I said 'celebrating more of the same'. You, and everyone else, agree it's pretty much more of the same. By celebrating I meant generally talking about it positively. I wasn't meaning praising it to the rafters. If you find the game fun, great - enjoy (ie Kula). But, seeing as I didn't really enjoy it, I was wondering what on earth people saw in it. It is getting a mostly favourable response here, which I found surprising, especially when people here often take sides over games I think are very similar (and that it has had more of a mixed reaction elsewhere). Also, you imply I want something shut down? How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion (and by implying, I mean that you seem to answer that point, even though it wasn't made at all). Overall, while I know I can be ham-fisted at making points, I don't think I deserved your reaction.
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Rift
Jan 4, 2011 0:45:19 GMT
Post by tantalyr on Jan 4, 2011 0:45:19 GMT
Straight to end game/shootser style isn't an MMORPG its an MMOFPS No, no it isn't. If I had meant that, I would've said that. What I am saying is, let people create their character with skill points or whatever, let them 'be' level 50 at the start, give them a training ground to practice etc and assign their keys, work out combos/optimum groups etc, then spend all your other dev/creation cash on making the instances/PVP areas, instead of loads of pointless areas that most people will run through for maybe two days as they 'level' through it. I'm offering it as an idea, really. I absolutely LOVE this idea!!! It puts me in mind of a space-based RPG I played years and years ago (and of course, whose name I completely forget) which, upon character creation, gave you a choice of multiple classes you could play (I remember one of them being "Mercenary"). Once you chose the class you wanted, you were given a boatload of points to put into the skills associated with that class. Once into the game, you could change those point allotments, and by adventuring you would earn more points to put into the skills you liked most. That way, when you entered the game proper you weren't completely gimped. And you could change around skills that really didn't fit your playstyle. Which, of course, means you could roll multiple characters with the very same class to try out different playstyles. Sadly, I've yet to hear of an MMO which has adopted such a system.
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Kulamata
Unemployed
Mane Man
Posts: 1,362
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Rift
Jan 4, 2011 0:57:36 GMT
Post by Kulamata on Jan 4, 2011 0:57:36 GMT
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Rift
Jan 4, 2011 2:00:05 GMT
Post by Deth on Jan 4, 2011 2:00:05 GMT
My issue with "Here is all your skill points" is that takes the RPG out for me. I like earning those points myself. Now if they wanted to give me all my skills and let me level up and earn points over time to increase those skills. I would like that. Some may say that you can RP with every skill and points to spend at the beginning, but I guess I am just old school in that I feel a RPG is a game where you earn and grow over time.
I would love to see a game that gives you access to a bunch of skills, lets you gain new skills over time, and lets you see end game quality content at the beginning of a game. Maybe content that scales with you as you level so you gain access to new content but also old contact that you can go back to later to earn new loot.
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Rift
Jan 4, 2011 2:22:31 GMT
Post by sheral on Jan 4, 2011 2:22:31 GMT
For my part, Alge, I agree, I'm celebrating more of the same. What I'm celebrating is the fact that it doesn't seem to suck huge donkey dick the way other similar, once 'promising' MMORPGs have turned out recently. It has enough different in it to make me interested (for now at least), without all the horrible bugs and unplayability that seem to plague new MMORPG releases. I would LOVE something truly different. Absolutely. But in the absence of such, I'll give this a try. If I burn out in a month or two I'll move on, just like I usually do. There hasn't been anything to keep me more than 6 months in the MMORPG world yet (okay so I've played WoW since release but that is very much an on again and off again relationship ). That's the reasoning behind my 'celebration' anyway. The points you make, however, are very valid, and I agree for the most part. Until that game comes along, however, I'll content myself with playing the ones that don't suck.
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Rift
Jan 4, 2011 18:14:06 GMT
Post by maddwarf on Jan 4, 2011 18:14:06 GMT
I think the overall point is at what time do you get that been there done that bored with it feeling?
Rift has a few good ideas, but so far if I were lead at Trion I would be worried about retention.
After 3 months I can see the game getting old fast.
So yeah they took a lot things that worked from WoW and incorporated them... these elements also work well in Rift. But because so much of the game "feels" like WoW what will happen a few months down the road?
This won't stop me from playing it. I just wonder how long it will keep me interested?
Perhaps I expect to much these days.
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Rift
Jan 4, 2011 19:02:31 GMT
Post by FrithRae on Jan 4, 2011 19:02:31 GMT
And from Tant (cuz my response/question fits to both) Well I thought that was kinda was DDO does - your in game, you get your class and points, and bam you go group content. There's no "playing through" quests and single player stuff. Its town - dungeon. Course I think they do still have levels, so I guess perhaps even if you're not starting at end game the dungeons get harder as you go? And Hellfire London did basically do the same thing - and failed. Course again, I guess it was still "levels" even though you didn't have the whole "RPG" aspect outside of yes, you pick skills to spend points in. But everything else was "jump in, get class, go do group runs". I guess to me that IS more an MMOFPS - cuz its not an RPG. I guess it comes down to how you define the "RPG" vs. "FPS" or what is in between - action rpg. Yea. I guess really that's MMOaction RPG. The only difference to me between that and MMOFPS is "skill points". I don't know when or why "skill points" means "is now RPG" cuz to me the two just don't mean the same thing . But I think there are a few games that are/did/try at least to start branching in the diretion both you and Tant are talking about. They aren't there at that "pure" state yet - where you're given say 50 levels of points to distribute before earning more - but they are also taking out the rest of the "typical RPG Grind" part - (I call it content lol). Gotta start somewhere right? No they don't do it right, or great, but at least they are variations of the theme yes? But I'm confused as to what you are asking for. You called WoW out (not saying as an insult to WoW but saying your point earlier) saying that its "the push to end game" but he game your describing to me is just pure end game with no other point or content. You start out with all the points and abilkities you'll ever get - and then just go play through dungeons endlessly with nothing else? Or PVP? To me, that's why I called that an FPS. Cuz that's what it seems the play would be like (maybe not with guns, with swords..but hey). But then maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're asking for. Not sure how saying "not fun move on" is an insult. Honestly. I think you're misinterpreting the tone in which I was meaning the post to come across (lol did that make sense?). But just as you say "if you like it keep playing" and its not an insult, "If you dont like it stop playing" is not an insult. I did not mean it to be an insult. I think we both misinterpreted tone - I took your post as more of a "this game is stupid sameo sameo - how can you possibly be having fun in this game" statement (not a "wondering how people are having fun" but a more negative statement) You seem to have taken mine as "you're stupid for wanting something different, that's never gonna happen." I can apologize for mine coming across that way - I wasn't writing it to be so. I too get frustrated and get the push/pull between wanting the difference and the innovative but having to be satisfied with the fact that IF it actually happens it don't happen fast. BLARGH! I feel like some people (was lumping you in wiht that group, however right or wrongly) tend to not want anything to be developed unless its different - and to me I see the fallacy in that line of thought. And I've not even touched the game to defend or not defend it. =) As others hvae said, I think I'm happier to see a game that is mostly WORKING on release and actually has CONTENT and is PLAYABLE (sad that we're impressed by that isn't it...) as opposed to the derth of quality releases as the genre has evolved. Because yes I DO see the horrible cloneing effect streaming down throught he genre. I absolutely see the gaping holes (as each of any of my MMO reviews in the last few years touches on what is the same and what is missing lol) in the genre and wish people would step forward and produce something to fill those holes. I think we're really in agreement - as I agree with your status of the genre as a whole and the (to us both) seemingly assinine decision of investors to continue to demand Fantasy-clones even after they continually fail. I just thing we're over-hearing the tones in our heads as overly negative from others. It tends to happen often on the interwebs . Otherwise, I would requote Sheral's first paragraph really. I would love something truly different and innovative, and I've followed games that never saw the light of day because they were truly different (even though I wasn't sure how much *I* would enjoy it, I supported it for it being different). But in the absence of that (and every year I feel it less and less of apossibility, unlike earlier in the genre when, as you said, peopel were being different), its becomes simply being happy at finding something that actually WORKS, is relaesed in a quality state, has content outside the tutorial, and would entertain me for 6-8 months. Which again, I feel is a sad state of affairs on the genre. When we've gone from really pushing and expecting NEW, to just being happy to have something worth playing 30 days for free...:/
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Rift
Jan 4, 2011 21:36:00 GMT
Post by Darkwater on Jan 4, 2011 21:36:00 GMT
Would have to see what the later stages and end game is like to make a real judgement on the game retention wise. I hope they start going to level cap in beta soon, very soon.
They just announced a March 1 release date in the US, March 4 in Europe.
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Rift
Jan 5, 2011 18:19:01 GMT
Post by FrithRae on Jan 5, 2011 18:19:01 GMT
oh that's nice and good bit away - good for them.
And yea I hope they at least give people the chance to experience other levels in beta. That's another thing that makes me nervous - if noone in beta ever gets above level 20 or 30 or something then I always wonder if its because they don't have any content for them, and therefore are goign to be way behind once launch hits and people maxx out in a week and then fil the forums with negativity. Never good.
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Kulamata
Unemployed
Mane Man
Posts: 1,362
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Rift
Jan 5, 2011 22:20:35 GMT
Post by Kulamata on Jan 5, 2011 22:20:35 GMT
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Rift
Jan 6, 2011 13:38:42 GMT
Post by Deth on Jan 6, 2011 13:38:42 GMT
I think I am going to pre-order this and give it a try for 6 months or so and see how it holds me.
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Rift
Jan 6, 2011 16:40:40 GMT
Post by Algenon on Jan 6, 2011 16:40:40 GMT
I guess to me that IS more an MMOFPS - cuz its not an RPG. FPS = first person shooter, which is the biggest problem I have with your analogy - that is a completely different core game mechanic. Without wishing to appear rude, I think you're taking a pretty short sighted view. Why try to squeeze my bud of an idea into the constraints of games that have come before? Take, for example, your favourite area from an old (or current) MMO. I bet for a lot of people it would be an area that you were only in for a few levels and that you have no need to go back to now. Imagine, for example, if all of the WoW world was still somewhere you could usefully quest and roam? Taking levelling away gives that scope. And it doesn't mean you can't have an RPG. You could even have a linear storyline for those who wanted it - all you need to do that is a linear chain of NPCs, not a levelling system. Also, if you had a crafting system more in line with Hz than other games, perhaps adding wear and tear, you keep those guys happy too. Again, you don't need levels to need different gear to tackle different situations etc. Again, I'm just throwing this out there.
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Rift
Jan 6, 2011 17:17:54 GMT
Post by Deth on Jan 6, 2011 17:17:54 GMT
One thing. I think me and Frith both Do not equate RPG with RP or even story line. To me at least an Role-play GAME i a game that gives you skill points over time to grow your character. Now I agree what your saying is not so much a FPS, but a "Here is all your points. Build a character that will never gain any more." is not a RPG, nor is it really a FPS, thought they do have FPS with RPG elements, but most of those you earn the points over time. I am not sure what a modern RPG that gave you all your point at the beginning would be called or if it would be a sub genre of the RPG.
I like your idea, but I am not sure, personally I would like a game that the whole purpose is to see content and grind for gear? In your idea of the perfect game, what are you there to earn? Are you looking for a group game to just do content? Grind gear? Say I beat X, Y and Z mega mobs?
Maybe a better way of doing things would have scaling content? So say a Level one could go into any zone fight mobs, with less skills and still have a chance to win. But for longer fights maybe? or fights that you can not win with out certain level skills? Or certain skills that make a fight easier faster? That way you can see what ever content you wish, go to any zone or return to a zone later and still have the same level of challenge no matter your level? The more I think about it. The more I can see that being the next big step in MMOs.
Have each race have it's own starting area with it's own challenges that you can level up in then go over to another starter area and be able to do that conent, easier but not so easy as your completely wiping the floor with the mobs. The lower level mobs might not have all the fancy attacks and skills and abilitys of something higher level, but then again if your planing for all mobs to scale with level you coul dhave them all have interesting attacks and skills.
The more I think about this the more I like this as a RPG idea. But I would still like some form of skill growth, maybe just not as big as we see now. Maybe every use of a skill gives you a point and every so many points in a skill gives a +1 to hit or damage or something. So you have all the skills you will ever get, but over time you can still grow your skills.
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Rift
Jan 6, 2011 18:38:22 GMT
Post by FrithRae on Jan 6, 2011 18:38:22 GMT
Let me be clear, I'm not trying to "pigeonhole" your idea into divisions that have come before becuse I want it to fit. I'm trying to use that to relate it better to what it is your asking for . And because if you design something that redefines the definitions of an entire genre, you better be pretty damn good at it cuz people WANT to pigeonhole in order to understand things relative to their base. If that made sense...lol. Well like what Deth said - then what is the point of questing and roaming at all - if you have nothing to earn? Course we're getting totally off topic now but hey . Like your example, the idea of a favorite area of WoW that I can return to and still have it be useful. Well, in speaking for myself, I actually do go back and complete quests in areas that have no benefit for me level or skill or gear wise. I do it because I want to see all the content. So I'm already playing "that" game. . The real difference there to me is you're talking about having no levels and all your skills and points from day one - so the only point to wandering the land, doing quests, content, PVP, or anything is...well as Deth asks - what is the motivation then? Cuz to me, there WILL Be some form of "leveling" in a system somewhere. Even if its not level 1-10 or 80. If you've got to say run dungeon X to go to dungeon Y, then well that makes Dungeon X loot the "First level" and Dungeon Y loot the "second level". YOu're still working on levels, just a different concept of levels. They'd be adding new content at the "end" for you to work through to see it all, where at the end of that content they'd be adding another new area/level of content. I know you're throwing out ideas here and maybe you're not looking for us to really LOOK at them as far as viability in gameplay I'm not sure. But looks like that's what we're trying to do - which maybe not what you are intending . But the ultimate quesiton is always "Why?" - so if you are saying "why dont we do something totaly different, throw out levels, put everyone on an even keel, and let them play" and I say "FPS" only because well..that's what an FPS DOES. I dont mean in terms of "one has quest and the other is just your premade character dropped into a zone to kill people" but in the terms of "you start the game, your character does not level or grow, but you might get better gear." And then yo urun around killing each other or NPCs in order to get better gear (Or points for the leaderboard, or whatever). You criticise me for trying to pigeonhole your idea, but I think you're taking my meaning of "FPS" way too small and literal. When someone tells me "you roll up your clas and everyone is on the same level playing field, with all the same points to spend, and you don't grow up from there" then I go "oh..like in an FPS multiplayer mission." LIKE..not definitely but "LIKE" .
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Rift
Jan 7, 2011 16:57:29 GMT
Post by sheral on Jan 7, 2011 16:57:29 GMT
Just to be pedantic and not trying to pigeonhole anyone or their ideas, but: RPG: the initial stands for role-playing-game. There are different types, but the meaning behind the letters has nothing to do with levels, or anything else. You can have a role playing game without levels. Just because there haven't been that many, doesn't mean they don't exist. FPS: the initials stand for first-person-shooter. That involves shooting things. It's not called a first person stabber, or zapper. There are games that straddle genres, like Tomb Raider, for instance, that has FPS and RPG elements. You can have rewards without levelling. You can have progression without levelling. There can be a point to a game other than levelling and it can still be an RPG. There was a game that gave you everything then pit you against others in PVP. While set in a fantasy setting, it wasn't an RPG, it was a PVP game. It wasn't an FPS because they had no guns.
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